Disney's Forerunners About This Page:

[Jciambor]

Without any of whom, Disney would have not come along. I credit these people for getting Disney into animation, these people is what made Walt decide to go into animation in Kansas city.

Video

YouTube - MAX FLEISCHER OUT of the INKWELL - The BRAY YEARS also includes Tantilizing Fly (1919)

YouTube - Emile Reynaud - Pauvre Pierrot (1892) First animated film in the traditional sense Pauvre Pierrot 1892

Also keep in mind that the first color cartoon was called The Debut of Thomas The Cat in 1920 made by Bray studios.

[Jciambor]

Some of you want to be animation historians well it didnt start at Disney. Historically speaking you should understand that there were animation companies out there just as and even more innovative than Disney, for their time. Still are other innovative companies today. I'm updating this thread because it got a bad rap originally and as a result no one not even animation enthusiasts wanted to respond.

Google Image Result for http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RKWtpew6Y9Q/SXIl7hCJBDI/AAAAAAAACGQ/6wYCtmfOjHs/s320/rotoscope-BB.jpg

Without the rotoscope any of the realistic movements and human characters seen in Disney films would have never exsisted, and animation would have remained a 2D and jerky short film novelty.

[Danielle Harmon]

Considering all the books and movies out there about Walt and his company that I have enjoyed, not one of them glossed over the facts you bring up. I don't think anyone hear believes Walt just dropped from the sky and began...all great discoveries are built on the shoulders of others who have gone before. Our failure comes only if we hesitate or cease to acknowledge that, and rely on our own pride.

Walt himself acknowledged that he built on and was inspired by many if not all of these people/companies in one way or another...good or bad.

JMO...but maybe the kind of abrupt tone with which the info was presented seemed more of an attack, than a way to generate discussion. I don't believe that was what your intention was, it just may be how it was perceived. I know I was kind of taken aback because it seemed so forceful. I don't think any of us here believe it began with Disney...but we do acknowledge Walt had an uncanny sense of what would sit right with audiences, impeccable comic timing, and a child like spirit that still inspires...even 43 years after his death. He didn't start it all...but he did do it better than anyone else...

[Jciambor]

Originally Posted by Danielle Harmon

He didn't start it all...but he did do it better than anyone else...

Business wise yes he made the deals that made the most money in the industry. However in terms of technical and artistic innovation his artists were just refining what earlier studios had come up with. Using accessible story lines and marketing techniques with these already created innovations is what won people over with Walt.

[Caldercup]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. My personal feeling is that Walt was an amazing storyteller and much better than those that came before him. (And it was Roy who was the real dealmaker and Walt was the dreamer.) Walt's storytelling skill has not been matched in the animation field until John Lasseter came along.

But that's only my opinion.
Eileen

[Danielle Harmon]

Originally Posted by Caldercup

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
Eileen

[Jciambor]

I'm a Disney historian I have been researching the man extensively for over five years now. From his childhood days of moving around the midwest and meeting theater aficionados the Pfeiffer's who had an impact on his interest in fables all the way until he collapsed on November 30th 1966 and spent the next and last 15 days of his life in bed. I have to say hes not the saint that many people want to see him as. Nor is he the amazing artist or innovator. Truth be told it was his production staff refining earlier animation studios techniques.

As for storyteller my extensive research of Disney is that he had a staff of writers and a story director named Ted Sears most of whom including Sears came from earlier animation studios. Their approach to making storylines at Disney was through adapting fairy tales. Also have you seen Fliescher, Winsor Mccay, Lotte Reigne more extensively? They came before Disney and had just as innovative if not more interesting storylines because they didnt do the convential Disney thing which was to adapt public domain fables and fairy tales and then visually intepret them.

Walt was not really a story man but on a positive note he was however a good producer that through his charisma he communicated and motivated to his artists and production staff to get results. Also I already know Roy was the financial caretaker of what Walt did was he initialized business decisions for Roy to take on the financial aspects of it. Those two things is what he did best and are the only things for what he should be credited for in the studio. He didn't animate anything since his days at Kansas City, and he didn't really have any part in the visual production or much of the story development of the films.


It disgusts me that he took credit from many companies that came before him and the thousands of artists and story directors that worked for him to create the critically praised films drove the studio. He was a business man and producer that is essentially it. Though in his time he took all the credit and payed menial salaries to the production staff and was usually abusive to them when he wasnt getting results.

So how do you say it yes their would be no Disney without Walt but he was a man of his time a ruthless one so you take the ying with the yang.

[Danielle Harmon]

Strange, if he was such a reprehensible person, that so many of his employees loved him and only spoke highly of him. This "discussion" is now over for me. It is clear that respect for an opinion that does not line up with your own is unwelcome, and frankly, that is not what this board family is about. So, I refuse to "discuss" a man, who is not here to defend himself, who made decisions under circumstances we can not grasp, in a time and context that we can not apply today's sensibilities to. I will just say that I prefer to look to the good in people and not discount anyone's contributions to the world...as you never know what leader or innovator you may be dismissing.

Nuff said.

[fluttercat]

Originally Posted by Danielle Harmon

Strange, if he was such a reprehensible person, that so many of his employees loved him and only spoke highly of him. This "discussion" is now over for me. It is clear that respect for an opinion that does not line up with your own is unwelcome, and frankly, that is not what this board family is about. So, I refuse to "discuss" a man, who is not here to defend himself, who made decisions under circumstances we can not grasp, in a time and context that we can not apply today's sensibilities to. I will just say that I prefer to look to the good in people and not discount anyone's contributions to the world...as you never know what leader or innovator you may be dismissing.

Nuff said.

I'm with you

[Jciambor]

Originally Posted by Danielle Harmon

Strange, if he was such a reprehensible person, that so many of his employees loved him and only spoke highly of him. This "discussion" is now over for me. It is clear that respect for an opinion that does not line up with your own is unwelcome, and frankly, that is not what this board family is about. So, I refuse to "discuss" a man, who is not here to defend himself, who made decisions under circumstances we can not grasp, in a time and context that we can not apply today's sensibilities to. I will just say that I prefer to look to the good in people and not discount anyone's contributions to the world...as you never know what leader or innovator you may be dismissing.

Nuff said.

Some of his employees spoke out against him as a result the 1941 Disney Strike took place the biggest animation strike in animated history. As a result some of them left and formed UPA (United Artists Productions) in 1944. Some of the animators that knew him either really hate him or really admired and spoke highly of him because of his business and producing skills that led to this empire. Though almost all of his animators admit he had prejudices and couldn't draw to save his life, and that he took their credit for their work which some of them didn't mind. His former employees have mixed feelings of him they speak of his acheivements which do matter and his faults.

Obviously you haven't researched fully into what his employees have said some of them like Marc Davis, Frank Thomas, and Ollie Johnston speak profoundly positive of him. However they still have admitted that he was a motivational speaker for the artists and never artistically contributed to any of the films.

Then theirs the opposing side of Art Babbit, UPA founder John Hubley, and Bill Melendez and some other animators who have expressed discontent of the man but like me know that he was a good producer and business person and led to enormous success. Though his treatment of his employees varied some where mistreated harshly and under poor conditions.

The ones that do recall positive experiences is because they were on Walt's good side not just because of staying respectful of him but they did things his way. Also a lot of animators even with bad experiences with him still want to protect his image by remembering the positive attributes.

I don't want to totally destroy the guy, he was good at what he did and established a successful company but he had such an ego that he made himself out to something he wasn't.

[Jciambor]

I admit that attacking a deceased man of over 40 years may not be the best thing. However I do research on the guy and while he motivated and initialized what much of the studio built on he left out a lot of people that were actually responsible for the work. I apologize for offending anyone if people misconstrued this then I'm off this thread as well.

[Caldercup]

I think the members here focus on Disney as a destination and not necessarily as a research topic.
Eileen

[wheatenwalker]

Originally Posted by Jciambor

I admit that attacking a deceased man of over 40 years may not be the best thing. However I do research on the guy and while he motivated and initialized what much of the studio built on he left out a lot of people that were actually responsible for the work. I apologize for offending anyone if people misconstrued this then I'm off this thread as well.

I have read some books about Walt and about the start of WDW ( Vinyl Leaves for one) and no matter what everyone says about the MAGIC of Disney and the man- its a business, he wasnt a saint- and certainly the bottom line was still that it was a business-
I like to know how things work and why- and while I look at WDW as a vaction spot, I like to know some of the 'research 'stuff too-- as do many ppl here, look at how many ofus do the behind the scene tours...

[Diz]

I agree that there are some passporters who are very interested in the making of The Walt Disney Company and so enjoy learning about its history. I will say, though, that there are others who are happy just to look at the good -- and there's nothing wrong with that either! All of us are made up differently and what I may choose to study may be totally different from the next guy.

Walt is our Walt. Period. There is good and bad in all of us. I will read and learn about the bad. But at the same time, I will focus on the good because I truly believe it was in Walt's nature to make people happy and to make their dreams come true. I don't see my view as wearing any kind of blinders. I just see Walt as an amazing man -- most amazing men and women have a support team and Walt was no different. There are few who have succeeded on their very own without any help from history or peers.

for the info and links.